Talk:2020-07-29 Steven Sharif Interview - TimTheTatman

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i changed my title i wanted her ashes okay i have my little list of questions that i have for him um chat what i'll say so like i have a couple questions and this just so you guys know this is like me oh i just thought of another one shit hang on [Music] um okay i have some questions that i have if we kind of get to a point though where it's like if we kind of get actually that's yeah that's a good question too if i kind of get to a point where i need you and maybe i'll just like look and shut all right so once again i'm just going to say this one more time we're about to talk to him we have about 45 minutes okay um which just make the minimum don't know in the minimum bit like 50 just because i i just i'd rather not have donuts in this i'd rather just be talking to steve um steven but basically Ashes of Creation is a new mmo game that is going to be coming out eventually uh a lot of people have been asking me about it and i've you know if you've watched me for a while you know i love mmos i don't stream them a ton but i've been addicted to world of warcraft for a very long time and i i looked i watched uh this whole video on Ashes of Creation and um that the lazy peon did and it was kind of like a highlight of it and uh and it really stuck out to me and so there were a couple things that i that i saw that i was like i wonder if this is gonna happen or i wonder if this will have you know this will be something that they do and so steven is the owner and i believe the ceo of basically is it intrepid that's the company right i don't want to be wrong but he's basically the head guy of intrepid and the game and so i i you know he's he i tweeted about it yesterday just saying i was excited about it he was like hey if you ever want me to come on stream hit me up so here we are the next day and i just want full disclosure chat i did not see asmon's all i watched was lazy peon's like 30 minute video and i think i watched the first like 20 minutes of the ama um with reddit okay so if i ask another question that you've already heard the answer to i haven't heard it and i'm sorry okay tim you're unprepared yeah but in my defense this isn't meant to be like a this isn't like a sponsor this is more natural right this is kind of like i like this seems really interesting and steve's kind of like yeah hey do you want to talk about it and i'm like yeah sure this isn't like a i didn't do like a whole set list you know i'm saying this is organic that's a good word for it okay i'm gonna call steven wait how do i call someone i'm calling him right now hello hello hey hey hey can you hear me yeah i can hear you can you hear me okay i can man yeah thank you i thanks for like for one tweeting at me fast and then for two i got up at like uh 4 30 this morning and i was rolling through emails and then i saw uh some of the twitter notifications like oh yeah that's cool tim said something about dave did you did you uh are you west coast are you cali yeah no i'm uh i'm west coast so i'm we're in san diego we're in san diego oh dude so you're up early early right now then well oh yeah you know always on the grind i think i think ever since uh i started the company about you know almost five years ago now i'm not sure that i've been able to sleep past five anymore i you know i you know now that i'm 30 i don't know the older i get the less i'm sleeping that's one thing i've noticed it's just kind of you know i'm waking up a bit earlier here and there and i can i can imagine if you're running a company just like this and trying to create a game like this there's probably probably a lack of sleep on for sure there's always a shit ton of stuff going on so you got it right keep your eye on everything the funny thing is i wake up earlier and earlier but i don't go to sleep earlier so it's like you're gonna sleep at like one you know your body's like what is happening right not like this i i appreciate you coming on man and i i i just just so you know where i'm coming from on what i know about the game all right i've kind of said this to stream already but i'll let you know straight up so i'd heard about it a while ago right and i this is i think this is like 2 000 like last year 2019 and yeah i remember hearing about it and i i remember being like that seems like it could be a cool game but i obviously there's a lot of mmos kind of that and this is like really early stages right and i'm like yeah we don't take with a great assault you know what i'm saying and then recently i want to say the last couple weeks act just to be honest with you a lot more people have been asking about asking me about ashes a lot more and yeah and then then that's when i started to you know dig in a little more and like this video you linked me when did this video come out yeah i think the reason why you're seeing a lot more you know conversation about it now especially more mainstream is because really of this this video and obviously peon did a great job and you know doing kind of like a catch-up summary uh and he used a lot of footage from this video but i think it's natural especially for an mmorpg that's just such a large project to build i think it's gonna be natural like you'll see those phases where people are extremely skeptical early on because there's not a lot of footage or stuff to show it's like okay you're transparent development you're trying to like vet your ideas to the community so you're talking a lot about it and people don't like seeing just talk they want to see you know action they want to see reality coming to fruition here and this video we released last month is 4k footage of the of the pre-alpha um just kind of showing the status of the mmorpg and i think that got a lot of people really excited but it also kind of showed them oh this is a reality yes this is this is going to happen and i'm excited about it yeah i think i think this because i watched this video so like after a lot of people were asking me about it it was like a month ago so that makes sense because people are like tim have you because people know i don't know if you knew this but i i i'm kind of like i'm a huge mmo guy i love mmos i i typically it's kind of weird being like a streamer and like i always say like asmin kind of does his own way of being able to be really entertaining with mmos and i i'm just you know i'm like i you know fps battle royales that's kind of my viewerships like wheelhouse that's what they love right but i've always you know i played wow just so you know i played wow when i was 13. i've been playing a while pretty much since and then i used to play um lineage two way back when oh you're a lineage new player so when i see this game dude this is why i'm getting like i'm seeing this and i'm like okay well hey you know i'm like i'm seeing some of the old like some some stuff here i'll tell you i can't tell you how many l2 players have come to me and they're like this is the spiritual successor to lineage too this is three i literally i literally so like when i saw this and then i watched uh lazy's summary and i just so you know stuff that like made me almost like jump through my seat was like the the corruption pvp system right something as simple as that is something that i loved in lineage that there was nowhere else i i i never played runescape the chat was saying it came from runescape or something like that i never played that the only spot i ever saw that was lineage two and i was like dude this is such a cool idea like you know you wanna be an a-hole and you wanna grief people you may lose some gear right and it's just kind of like the way it works it's when i saw that oh my god so yeah so that's that's a little you know background on me but i but what i will say is when i watched peon's video yesterday there was a lot that really stuck out and i i don't know like you know obviously we just kind of did this on the fly but if you want to like i'm sure you've heard a million questions so i if you want to talk just a little bit about like um it's just for some of my viewers that probably have no idea some of the like main things that you are excited about for ashes i know i have my own list of things that excited me but like stuff like the nodes which i'm pretty sure this is where you're at right now right in the video right yeah yeah you can see um that's a stage two node development so i mean just just to give i guess a real quick recap so that people can contextualize the game um you know the thing that really stands apart with Ashes of Creation is a world-building aspect and you know traditionally in mmos you go in there's static npc structures these cities that exist you know they have a railroaded kind of quest experience where you go from quest a to b to c d um and once you reach end game you know it's kind of incumbent on the player uh to make their own content so to speak um so uh you know with ashes the big difference is uh everywhere throughout the world when you first join a server it's gonna be barren from a city standpoint right you're still going to go out the world if you're going to do normal you know hunting and questing and gathering and stuff that gets you experience in your invention class but um as you're collecting that experience a node somewhere nearby is also collecting the experience and as it connects collects enough from the players it's going to advance in stages and at each stage it unlocks new services new quest lines player governments alliances treaties wars you know just a whole bunch of shit that people get to participate in and eventually what that means is each server is going to have a different linear life span or you know player joined six months after launch it's going to be a different experience and the main mechanic in which you explore new content is through the sieging system because not all nodes can level at once when a node levels it locks out nearby levels um nearby nodes from advancing and players have to siege and destroy the player built cities in order to unlock that content so that's just like a quick recap just people who don't maybe know the like just a bit but what excites me the most is what that what you were just describing about lineage 2 is because a lot of the systems in lineage 2 were based around a concept that got lost today in mmorpgs and that's risk versus reward yes you know this this idea that the more you risk the greater potential reward should be present is a as a complete paradigm shift away from everyone's a winner everybody gets a participation reward you know and here you go you know congratulations you're a player in this game yeah right and that's boring it gives it gives nothing for a person to aspire to achieve something or to feel the bite of loss when you fail right right those are the driving forces of why people want to play games and it's a reason why new games when they come out have such a short lifespan because they're always competing with wow you don't have to compete with wow you don't need to be a wow killer right right you can focus on something that is different from a philosophical design standpoint and i think that's just what a lot of studios today don't want to take the risk on because an mmorpg is a is pardon my friendships i mean is a huge fucking it project a lot of money to build these things and you know the suits that sit on a board say hey world of warcraft's doing good let's do what they did right i mean and that's when you stifle innovation it's when you stifle you know progression in a genre i mean that's that's the reality of it yeah man i i completely i completely agree with you i you know i you know i love wow in its own right right but i i it's like i completely agree and i think that i haven't seen what's how do i want to say this i haven't seen like an mmo a newer mmo where it's like that kind of a drive in a very long time i think one of the last times i remembered playing i think it was lineage that's really the last time i remember playing a game where it was like like you said high risk high reward right it's like if you want to be an a-hole and then at the same time it's kind of like for that person that's griefing it's kind of like a russian in their own right right because now you got five people trying to kill you and you're trying to get away yeah and like save your gear right so it's like i when i dude when i saw that that was like one of my main i was like yes i was like 100 yeah i took a lot of inspiration from uh lineage ii also i took some inspiration from you know archeage i thought archeage had had great potential i don't know if you ever got into that i actually never got an art page i heard good stuff about it but i never you would have you would have probably liked it in its alpha and 1.0 stage but then after that like the design decisions just destroyed the game and the pay-to-win aspect that they implemented because they were a freemium business model they had to incentivize players to purchase from their marketplace so you know paywind came in and it destroyed which th the player-driven economy which was what the whole freaking thing was built on uh and a lot like you know i ran a really large i started my guild in lineage too actually funny enough um and i i i over the years we went from game to game like you do and uh you know we built up pretty large and like literally the moment that they introduced one one item into the cash shop that destabilized the player driven economy half of my guild quit the game within like two weeks yeah because it's like you lose that you lose the drive immediately it's like you've been working so hard and now it's kind of like someone else can just come along and be like oh here you go yeah right and it's exactly so i completely agree with you there um okay so just so you know i put i have a couple like questions that i was talking to chat about that i have and if you've answered these i'm sorry and like i said i i saw the first 15 to 20 minutes of your ama on reddit the other day and then i watched peon's thing and i've watched some gameplay out of this that's literally all i know okay yeah no worries i don't want to get repeat questions on i was gonna say if you have to repeat i'm sorry but um i guess i'll just hit you with these bro because there's a couple and i got like 30. so like and thank you for coming out by the way too i just i don't think i said the beginning i appreciate the time you know what i mean i appreciate it i appreciate it too i love these impromptu things too yeah like organic yeah just having a conversation chad's trying to tell me i'm unprepared and i'm like well this is like an organic thing right or he tweeted me from the account i'm like alright yeah let's do it i mean i don't have a list or anything but let's do it so i guess for me um one thing i was curious about uh for pvp is there ranking is there a ranking system at all is there any pvp gear at all and keep like i said i don't know if you've answered this so there's not pvp gear specifically gear is meant to be universal between pve and pvp however gears gear does have a slotting system that takes specific types of enchantments and those enchantments can be more geared towards uh pvp related um combat uh damage and and damage mitigation or they can be more related to pve things now you can swap those those slotted uh enchantments out also so uh you can you know if you're more pvp oriented or you're trying to climb the ladders and speaking of ladders and leadership yes there is a leadership board those refer mainly to the arena systems there's also going to be an internal ladder for guilds when the guild participates in guild wars or they participate in siege sieges you'll be able to climb the ranks of your inter-guild ladder as well so you get bragging rights amongst your friends but then you also have the arena system for bragging rights among the server and then based on your performance in those pvp systems will determine a certain a special non-tradable uh currency that you then use to gain access to those enchantments uh that you can slot into your gear okay that's cool that's cool um while we're talking about enchanting another question that i had and this is something that i used to love in lineage and i i wonder if you did it or not but how the their enchanting system do you remember how you could like enchant your weapon and blow it up and you could blow it up is there anything like that in this game are you staying away from that i was just curious so there there is rng elements when it comes to over-enchanting things um what we're going to do likely is is have a safety then this is something obviously needs to be tested but we're going to have a safety period of enchantment you know like in lineage 2 i think you could have changed plus 4 or something or yeah right yeah i think possibly safe yeah yeah and so we're gonna have a similar system where you can enchant safely and then when you start to take risks that percentage of potentially um damaging your item either through the decay system or completely disabling it through the destruction system uh will be a risk that's present okay wow that's dope that yeah because that that was kind of like what you were talking about how you say high risk high reward right i i just remember walking around and i would see some of these guys and they have like plus 10 weapons and i'm like right i'm like dude you guys tried to enchant that rare weapon absolutely six times past you're insane right right now and here here's the other thing not even just from a risk worse reward standpoint but the importance of decay slash disabling and destruction is that the weapon won't be wholly gone but it will place a new demand on the supply chain of crafters and it's always important for interdependencies to exist when you have a pvx style game where pvpers are looking for good gear and the crafters have to dedicate you know gathering and processing of those resources so the decay system is not going to be some worthless oh i'm just going to throw some gold into this and it's a simple gold sink it's actually going to require some base materials in order to repair decayed items and decay occurs from death uh and it also uh you know the destruction and disable system for the weapons over the over-enchanting will require those materials as well so creating that dependency i think is healthy for the crafting economy yeah that's i yeah that's actually i see that was something i didn't know that's that's a that's a cool that's definitely a cool mechanic with that too that's dope um so with the nodes right and like i said forgive me because i haven't seen a ton and you've probably answered this a million times so with the nodes um is is the node limited to a guild is it a group of people is or clan i don't know what you're calling it in this game um is it a set group like if it can you and your friends get this node can i live in your node you know i guess is my question so nodes have a system what's called citizenship and citizenship you can only ever declare yourself a citizen of one node at a time there's a cooldown period if you ever renounce your citizenship uh if the node is destroyed you lose your citizenship and you can join another node as a citizen it's not guild specific right guilds aren't going to own nodes they can all join a particular node if they want to but the mechanism in which you you essentially become a citizen is you must own property within the node before you can become a citizen so that means like there's static in node housing these houses pop up as each stage as it advances you can buy them you can sell them to other people uh you put furniture in them they have real world applica they have in-world application you know like uh advancing your professions that you have with certain furnitures um the apartment system is an instanced version of that so there's three types of housing sorry in node static housing then the apartment system is an instanced version where the mayor can elect to build apartment buildings this then therefore allows additional citizens to become part of the node which collects additional taxes which then the mayor can devote from the treasury towards either strengthening the defenses of the city for future sieges or by expanding the city's infrastructure allowing more quest content and or social organizations to to sprout up and then the third type is our freehold system so the freehold system is actually a literal like parcel of land that you lay out in the in the open world but it has to fall under the zone of influence essentially the territory of a node um and on the freehold is where you collect blueprints and you build up certain processing plants like a smelter for you know processing ore into uh craftable materials or you can put a house down or you can put a fishery down or you can put a stable for the animal husbandry system you can put a business down as well if you're a cook or you create these consumable buffs players can come to the business on your freehold eat the buff and they'll receive proximity bonus uh proximity buff essentially as long as they hunt around your freehold so to speak so you kind of establish these businesses and each of these um each of these buildings can be upgraded on the freehold as well so those are like the three housing systems once you become an owner of one of those under a node you can you can uh declare yourself a citizen you pay taxes and and so with the citizenship is it like is is it basically once you're a citizen you're in or is there like a ranking system inside the citizenship does that make sense so there's not really a ranking system per citizen however there are social organizations like there are six different religions that a temple could be built to one of them and then if you were to become a follower let's say you go to the temple and you sign up to be a follower of that religion there is an inter-organization quest line that can advance and rank and title and only one person can be the leader for a period of time if they advance all the way to the top so like during sieges they'll have special benefits like they can you know grant divine prayer buff to allies within you know x amount of distance of them during the siege so like these titles have specific relevancy during events um and uh you know there's like scholars guild and thieves academy or city scholars academy and thieves guild uh that you can also advance in a similar fashion to become the head of that organization within the town um but there's not like a rank you know of citizens so to speak other than the mayor i guess the mayor and everybody else and the mayor i i i on peon's video i think it was saying like based on which type of node you're building it that's how it varies right or something yes yeah so there's four types of nodes that that are statically uh placed around the world um and you'll know that based off like the first progression like as soon as it progresses to a crossroads or like a little camp and some npcs you're going to see either scholars you're going to see priests you're going to see military or you're going to see merchants right and that'll tell you immediately like oh this is either a divine node a military node a scientific node or an economic node right and each of those has its own election system the scientific is democratic so players vote um the military each person gets a champion essentially that they can build they can kit out with uh gear and then those champions fight in a gladiatorial arena for the mayorship um and then the uh the economic is an oligarchy so it takes contributions of either mats materials uh and gold to bid for the mayorship each month um and then the uh divine is a quest based kind of merit system where the person who does the most amount of temple quests over that month's period election period uh becomes the mayor for the next month i wonder how many streamers are going to make scientific nodes bro and everyone's gonna be like come here guys i can see i can already see asmin running around and he's like all right scientific node right here i'm the mayor you know what i'm saying um that's definitely an issue but i don't i don't i don't personally know how to combat that issue no that's i mean bro once and i was thinking about i was literally so like after i was kind of looking at everything i was thinking to myself i was like dude as a streamer i wonder how this is going to kind of play right it's like okay like dude i wonder if all the streamers kind of like for classic wow a lot of us said we were going to go on the same server right and then i was like i'm thinking for this game i'm like man if we all go on the same server this is going to be uh this is gonna be pretty crazy with everything that could happen but um you know it'd be interesting to watch it play out for sure oh yeah so basically with the the with the nodes you said they can go at war with other nodes correct right yeah nodes have the ability uh the mayor can elect certain diplomatic relations with nearby nodes um if they elect to be uh trade partners or to establish an alliance certain quest lines become available to both citizens of each node and there are automated caravans that start running between the nodes which are escort duty there's combined events that occur that players can participate in and or they can you know we're non-faction based one thing i hate about you know i thought wow did a great job as an mmo but one thing i i dislike about mmos in general is having faction-based systems i hate being told who my enemy is and who my friends are because often times my own faction are my worst enemies and people i can't stand so i want to kill them whenever i can right so the thing i loved about i think i loved about lineage 2 and other non-faction-based games was it's more guild driven as long as you provide the opportunity to create these pseudo-factions and we do have a lot of opportunity for pseudo-factions to occur right with the citizenship of nodes or with guilds or within the races you know those those i believe create soft friction which allows the player the agency to determine who their friend or foe is and that i think creates a much more um compelling emotional investment like this dude backstabbed me or right you know like i have a blood feud with this guy or like you know i wanted to change my enemies and my friends like those are those are things that really is what sticks with you throughout time like yeah you can experience the the most awesome curated content and a cool raid boss and stuff but like you know i remember in archeage and i told the story before we had literally and i'm not exaggerating here we had a 24 hour straight long battle did not end and it was over a kraken there were like 50 galleons out in the ocean just bombarding each other i went to bed in the middle of the fight for like three hours got back up got into the admiral seat and was like all right let's go and it was it was an experience that you'll never you'll never forget that exactly like those are the experiences you don't forget yeah yeah go ahead i didn't interrupt you sorry no i'm just gonna say if you don't give the players those tools which sometimes faction based games don't um you know it's it's it's not as fun i i remember in lineage there was this guy that would grief a lot of people and finally one day everyone like almost set him up and made him like go red and then griefed him on top of it to try and like and like stuff so like little memories like that that i remember like this guy kept he just kept killing me you know what i'm saying and drove me nuts and then i mean a couple of my buddies like let's try and like bait him you know what i mean like you go out by yourself you get killed and all of us jumping and it was like this whole plan and it worked out you know what i mean and so it's like so that's like a little a little memory with that but that actually just made me think so with the node battles right so basically you're at war with someone is it like a formal thing where you are like we're going to war with you over there or is it like they just roll up and they're on their doorstep and you're just like holy shit yeah it's like okay so the way our wars work is like one thing i didn't like about a lot of ways that guild wars happened and this was in lineage too as well you could declare war you know um basically guilds can declare war on other guilds and nodes can declare war on other nodes right so what that does is it takes either the guild members or the citizens and it flags them in the open world against each other for a period of time uh and so they can fight it out uh essentially and what happens is open world objectives will spawn and these will be random right it'll depend on what the the state of the world is essentially what the level of the of the guild is or what the stage of the node is what type of you know buildings did the node construct do they have a scholars academy do they have a you know a temple of shoal you know what is it um and that'll determine what the objective is the wind condition objective um so players will have a certain period of time based on whether or not they were the declarer of the war or the recipient of the war uh to achieve certain aspects of that of that uh of that fight and that'll determine the win it's not just going to be a straight up like oh you know i killed x amount of people and after an hour that's why we won because that's easily exploitable we always hated like oh man do we have a spy in the guild and he's just like out in the corner somewhere like killing himself to the enemy and sure you know taking advantage of here it's like a real world objective that you're determined to go defend or go attack um you know or steal something from the reliquary of the node you know it's like it's going to be more dynamic in that regard so basically in theory could one like guild rule all of okay two questions one how many nodes are there was there i think you said over a hundred three 103 different nodes but remember not all can be leveled at once when they start leveling they lock out neighboring nodes so it creates a unique specific type of content uh based on the node structures and and so like let's say you have a level two node and there's uh um what's the what's the level five one the uh the city just yeah i like the city and then a metropolis after that yeah it's like a metropolis allowed to attack and just basically you got your level two note over here but you got a metropolis city over here or whatever and they can are they allowed to like basically go over and be like hey what's up level two and then wipe them out yeah yeah the the government system comes online at stage three which is the village stage so first pages crossroads little camp doesn't have houses doesn't have government doesn't have citizens stage two is in an encampment or sorry stage one's a crossroads state shoes and it can't mint um that is the same thing doesn't have you know it can't be sieged it it doesn't have a government doesn't have citizens can't be declared war on at stage three which is the village stage stage four is the town stage stage five is a city stage and stage six is the metropolis stage at each of those stages there are citizens there is government and essentially yes a metropolis could declare war on a stage 3 village now in those scenarios i would almost venture to say that that the uh the metropolis is a little bit at a disadvantage because if you ever were a member of a large guild and you're fighting a smaller force you know they kind of they're they're allowed to dictate the parameters of the battles they engage with they can do more gorilla type tactics you know what i mean yeah and you have a lot more people a lot more fodder to worry about as well uh in that regard if you're a metropolis um so yeah it's it's it'll be interesting dynamic for sure um and because the wars aren't necessary the wars aren't necessarily like a straight-up castle siege where just numbers are going to count right there's going to be objectives that are more geared towards smaller groups and the way that um the way that the guilds work to combat zerging is guild's level in advance uh through a certain guild quest system that the guild members must participate in as the guild levels it gets its own guild specific uh skill points and it can allocate those skill points to either allow the guild to grow in membership size or it can allocate the skill points to provide passive buffs to its members so what you're going to end up with is either larger guilds with less combat benefits but they have numbers right as opposed to smaller more specific focused guilds that have passive abilities allocated interesting and and you said too so like it's kind of world event based right if you're at war with another guild am i understanding that right like you can okay so like with that is there like a is that just almost random like it could be 11 47 at night and i'm getting ready to log off and all of a sudden bam there's one of the objectives or is that like you declare war there's almost like a set like okay there's a saturday whatever whenever you join a server there's going to be prime hours of the server and you're going to know that because you see next to the server like oh this is east coast american or you know west coast whatever that's going to correlate to a prime time um any objective based events are usually going to exist within those core hours i've got the server time exists so you're not going to get ninja at like 3 a.m for your castle or a siege against yourself right yeah your guild war is not going to populate or spawn the objectives at life for the morning three in the morning you know like yeah the idea is to keep it contained gotcha yeah that that was that was what i was curious about um so i guess another question i'd have is like so a lot of my viewership right uh everyone round of applause for you guys chat a lot of my buddies and my my stream not a lot of them know mmos right i would say maybe a third of my audience could probably plays mmo regularly and that's been one of the problems too with and one of the objectives of ashes is to introduce the younger and i hate this i don't want to boomer this up but i mean you kind of you have to right because like i'm i'm 30 i just turned 35. all right i'm 30. and and uh you know i was playing mmo since i was seven years old and not a lot of people know this but like back in the day 1992 when i was seven you had to pay but i didn't have to pay because i was seven but my mom had to pay six dollars by the hour to use the internet yeah the internets right and um the first graphical mmo and i'm sure it's gonna spawn a great debate but the first graphical mmo was was never winter on aol i remember and i remember hearing about that when i was a kid i remember hearing about that right and and i i played like i got hooked immediately at seven i was like holy shit i can kill a dracolich what the fuck i was like this is great uh i found out at the end of the month that it wasn't so great when the bill came but you know while i was i was a lot of fun while it was happening hey what was happening and so anyways i feel like you know today we have uh we have an aging demographic you know among mmo players and it's difficult to introduce new players because many of the mmo franchises today are older they're 10 years old most of them right like those are the most popular ones are the ones that are aging and that's because there's not a lot of new you know projects being developed so that's why i took it upon myself to create you know an mmo that i thought uh answered the call of new players but uh also would be attractive because one we're doing an unreal engine four unreal engine is a beautiful energy i mean this um this thing's i mean just the game in the background it's gorgeous i've been looking at some of the spell casts and stuff like that yeah and i think if you revitalize the interest from the older you know demographic you're going to get the spillover from people who've never experienced an mmo before and just sees how dangerous it is to play an mmo like literally to your livelihood it is dangerous to get into a no life anymore yes i completely agree with you because like i i it's hard for me as a 30 year old to explain to like a a t like a 13 year old right like when i was 13 that was when i first sat down and i played classic wow um and i just remember i i still i played it and i was like whoa like this is like something i've never played before and i know i'll never kind of have that feeling again but it's my as much as the 30 year olds i think want it well that's what i'm hoping for steven i am hoping that i sit down on whatever day that this releases and i'm like oh brother that's the goal and i'm like this is it i got it again you know what i'm saying i just remember when i was playing classic i was i was up until my bedtime was supposed to be uh 10 that was like my dad told me how to go to bed and i stayed up to 11. and my dad comes in he goes go to bed what are you doing i was like okay i went to bed i woke up woke up at three in the morning before my bus got there at five and i played for another two hours so i got like five man i resonate with that so well i used to have my mom like breaking into my room when i was a little kid and pulling the power cord out of my computer she was like you were supposed to be in bed it's like 1 30 in the morning i'm like but there's a raid i know i know right it's that you don't understand what i'm going through over here um that's what i completely agree with the one thing i would say is that like um you know i'm not on here to like sell the game sure you know we we have predator packages but i don't care if people buy the game you know the game's funded to completion i'm personally funding everything right right right what i'm here to do is what's so important and what i what i really appreciate you give me the opportunity to do is what's so important is getting feedback from the community and people participating in talking about the development we're doing an open development that's very rarely ever seen people don't do open developments like we're doing really it's dangerous it's a double-edged sword because you have to like you have to trust that the gamer population looks at an unfinished product and says oh this is unfinished i understand this is pre-alpha or this is alpha it's going to get much much better right but the benefit of that sword is that as we're introducing systems and as we are testing shit you guys get to give feedback and as a consumer it's so important to use the voice that you have that that that that support and or disagreement to give direction to other companies because so many companies go astray nowadays because they're not being made by the decisions aren't being made by gamers are being made by people who are focused on the bottom line of a company and the honest truth is with games there is a very core principle that remains true always if you build it they will come sure and what you need to build is what the players want so it's super important for everyone to if they see if they like what they see right and they agree with these game philosophies to show some love to the to the to the project you know come in and talk about it go on our social media you know subscribe and and give your thoughts when we make posts and shit that's important super super important but at the same time understand we're still in development so patience is something that right you know patience is important i mean i think i speak for like almost everyone in chat when i say like w that's awesome you know what i mean that's a win you know it's like how you're you know it's yeah i don't want to bash anything but it is i don't want to bash anyone but i you know what you're saying i think is it's something that excites a lot of people and and i think too even my audience who's not a ton of mmo you know fans i i know there's a lot of people that have interest in it like even when i would play classic on stream because i always tell my chat there's always times that come with me in my games where i'm just going to play what i want to play for a very long time so like i already told them like when this game launches i want you guys to understand something i it's all i'm going to be doing i'm not even going to i'm just going to sign on right that's all i want to sink my teeth into and uh it's just you know i think but like i also think too that you know with that in mind and showing that you know mmos this day and age can still have that grip it could be a really really cool thing um i am i still have do you have time do you got to go at 12. no no i kind of said 12 because my friends are getting on but like neither of them are even on right now so i'm just kind of like i'm gonna just keep going because i'm curious about some stuff too so i mean let's just keep it rolling i um so one thing that really interested me i i i liked so i i don't know if you've gripped it but like a lot of what lineage i liked about was was the pvp mechanics and kind of how it worked a little bit um so when i hear a 200 versus 200 now keep in mind the only i've never played like a guillotine 250 versus 250 if you're 250 right is there any so like i don't want to bash anything but i'm going to say i'll say what i'm going to say so like when i play world of warcraft sometimes when i am playing wow uh and i'm streaming it uh some people will show up and there will be a lot of fighting and i will lag a lot and i in my head i'm almost so used to a big battle equates to right is there any fear with that and once again if you answer this i'm sorry i didn't no no it's totally fine i mean that's that's a valid concern i mean i i have yet to experience an mmorpg that did not have issues when there was more than like 100 players in an area doing something um so there's it's important to know remember a lot of the a lot of the current mmos that are popular are again older franchises and when you're building a game you are building it with the architecture that's available at the time right now that's not to say there's not mmos that have not been constructed and handled large amounts of players but they've done so in certain ways like eve online they have a lot of players but they you know they slow down essentially the speed during that time planetside i believe still holds the record for number of players in a battle we have a lot of developers from the planetside team the other important thing to think about is that technology today is very different than technology was two years ago four years ago six years ago and especially 10 and 20 years ago so you know there are certain back-end networking uh uh uh systems that we have architected which will allow uh for a large number of players in a certain area and that's essentially through distributing the service that these these these players and processes need to be done on to multiple servers and that's scalable so as players enter more players into a certain area more servers come online and start distributing the load you know to those processes additionally from a client side when you're rendering these numbers of players there are very specific heuristic algorithms that are applied in order to essentially uh um dictate what you're rendering and you're only going to render the relevant people within a certain area so you know today our gpus are capable of doing a lot more than again they were two four six years ago so you're gonna have a lot more uh possible rendering but we not only have practices within the game such as default player appearances to lower the number of polygon counts between the armors that you're rendering um you know there's going to be the ability as well to utilize those culling algorithms to essentially only show you the most pertinent you know 200 or 150 players and you'll be able to scale that based on your rig as well so there's a lot of things that can be leveraged nowadays um uh to essentially create a a much better experience for large player battles and i have absolute confidence that we'll be able to achieve the 250 versus 250 and as a matter of fact what we are attempting really to do is push that limit even further and you know part of testing is to to test those things i mean a large a large portion of the reason why we even did apocalypse which was kind of like a limited mode combat testing ground was to test uh our uh uh architecture for large player battles and we actually discovered that we needed to adjust some things during that process which thank god we discovered earlier because it's always more difficult later on to fix things as it's fundamental interesting i i mean that's great to hear i mean because i think and that's another thing that i've always thought about you you you want that experience in the real world and like when i'm when i'm like world pvp and wow and there's like more than like 10 or 15 people it's hard for me to actually almost give up right because i can't do anything oh yeah cause i can't even it's like a slide show right i can't even hit my ability i'm hitting my one ability like seven times and it's not doing anything you know the worst is when the dc start to happen and people just start disconnecting out of it right my raid is is grayed out right now what just happened yeah and i guess this kind of ties in too and i guess you kind of spoke to it a little but my what i was gonna ask is is there any layers in the game or do you plan to just is it basically technically one giant world so it's almost like a phase so like everyone's there but like with because you were kind of talking about almost like a phasing sort of thing or something like that well it's not going to be phasing it's just when i'm talking about like the the culling algorithm that really reflects i'm pretty dumb so yeah yeah you almost have to explain that to me when you see a player when you see a a player character model in front of you right you're rendering that object in the world but if there's 50 player models around you and 10 of them are running away from you or don't have a skill in their forward arc towards you then really those players aren't as relevant so to speak so really it's going to be it's going to be both a at least they're not as relevant as the 40 other players that are running towards you and are closer to you right so so you know that's kind of how we kind of determine um helping the client rendering condition that's really more dependent on your hardware and how good you can handle you know number of bodies on screen so to speak um i'm about to make nzxt send me like a fifteen thousand dollar computer or something for those things or something like that okay now there's no layering in the sense of channels you can't switch channels and that would be really hard to implement a layering system in an open world that has real world excuse me that has open world uh uh pvp that's available right through the flagging system that would be unfortunate if people could just dip out of your channel and you can't find them or you gotta go to three different channels and shit okay that's dope to hear awesome yeah i get that now okay i understand um so another thing that i you kind of talked about a little bit in the ama um at the very beginning and i just kind of was curious about it and i was just gonna have like bring it up again as far as like you know i i know you don't want pay to win and stuff um do you guys have any plans for like a set annie cheat uh you know botting oh yeah stuff like that absolutely yeah yeah that's a pretty big problem that's a huge issue and it was it really was a big issue in lineage too as well so the first things first from a business model standpoint um we're a subscription-based game and we're a subscription-based based game but without a box cost i really think it's it's sometimes a little little greedy for companies to charge a box cost per expansion and then also a subscription and also have a micro transaction market it's like how many ways can i shake the coins out of my players pockets like that come on so with that regard it's also a tough barrier to entry if you know one of the big things about a company is about a game is having a good population so if you can mitigate the the barrier to entry by removing that box cost and only having a subscription model sure that does two things one it lets people try the game out for like fifteen dollars and if they don't like if the product doesn't speak for itself right then they don't resubscribe like that's that should be the confidence marker that companies have in their products and if there is something wrong and you don't see retention among your player base then you need to go back to the drawing board and determine what is wrong and listen to your community that is something that's super important um so that's why you know we're doing subscription model only the other thing is we do have a cosmetic marketplace the reason for the cosmetic marketplace is because there is a serious divide between hardcore players and casual players now that doesn't mean you're gonna look like shit in the game if you don't buy something from the cosmetic marketplace there's gonna be in-game achievable transmogs and and and and cosmetics that you can achieve uh but for the more casual player who might not have the time but wants to look cooler than their base armor looks like they're going to have options in the cosmetic marketplace you're not going to be able to purchase like mounts from there you'll be able to purchase mount skin so what that means is you'll have to achieve the mount in the game first and then based on that tier of mount you can apply a cosmetic skin to make it look different right so it's not like you're going to be purchasing mounts either gotcha awesome and just out of curiosity with the cosmetic so you said like transmog so like um are the cosmetics it's like strictly cosmetic or can i have my gear that has all my good items on and still look like that does that make sense it's like a trans market or is it like a completely different set that makes sense no so so you'll be able to to change specific appearances of pieces so there's a piece to the armor set or you can apply a full-on costume which would change the entire appearance but the important thing is right being a pvp game you want to have effective threat assessment for an opponent that you might be rolling up on and sometimes cosmetics can get in the way of that so what we have instead is when you target an opponent at a quick glance you'll be able to notice the buffs that they have on them and one of those buffs is going to be indicative of the predominant gear they're wearing so if they're mostly plate mostly cloth mostly leather you're going to see a quick glance and that buff will reflect either leather plate or or or cloth and then it'll have a color and border around it that'll determine that is determined by the quality and tear of the armor that they're wearing so you'll be able to quickly assess the opponent and understand what they are even if they're wearing a cosmetic set awesome that's great okay that's awesome to hear um someone in chat asks this i don't you probably don't like there a lot of them are saying pc requirements do you have any id you probably don't even know that yet though because it's alpha still right i'm just assuming you know generally you can assume that any game that's present in unreal engine 4 and their system requirements is going to be the the the min suspect for uh for our game because um on the front end of unreal engine which is a beautiful a great engine and you know the good thing about commercial engines like unreal is that you can take any piece of it you want and you can change it it's it's completely customizable you have access to the you know the source code and change to change those things um so that's what we're doing with the back end but on the front end which is really the most prevalent to you as a as as your computer uh with respect to your computer and your rig and hardware you're using um any game really out there in unreal engine 4 is going to be is going to be a good comparison to what you'll need for actions okay okay gotcha um so another question that i have uh and this is just my own curiosity so end game stuff i kind of i got a gist of what end game is going to look like you have some world bosses you know raids dungeons etc um is there going to be a best in slot like list where it's like if you have x y and z you can maximize your damage or is it kind of going to be like you can piece stuff together i know that i i know and i know somewhere i saw that they're set bonuses right so like is is is that kind of it basically like you you want to have obviously your set bonus with all of your max bonuses on it or can you kind of piece stuff together so so from you can definitely piece stuff together uh you will want to have probably completed sets but set bonuses will scale based on the number of set pieces you have so it's not going to be like all the set or nothing it's going to be incrementally getting better and that kind of gives the option to mix and match certain set pieces right if you want a mixture of buffs or if you want the full end set bonus that's pretty really on you from a gear chase standpoint um your the relevancy of your gear is going to be dependent on the encounter you're facing okay so if you're if you're facing a more magic heavy encounter you're going to probably want to to have gear that's appropriate for that as opposed to more physical based right and or if you want to go more evasion tank or you want a more damage mitigation or damage conversion there's going to be a lot of choices in that regard the idea behind the class system and the gear that complements the class system is that you choose one of eight archetypes first right and that's uh that's tank fighter rogue ranger on the marshall side and then it is summoner cleric mage and bard on the arcane side um and the essentially those eight archetypes conform to a holy trinity type cl uh uh archetype system so we're not gonna reinvent the wheel when it comes to the trinity system we feel that's a very good system and essentially what happens is when you hit level 25 you're going to be able to choose again from those eight base archetypes to create your secondary archetype which will then create one of 64 classes based on your combination there and those 64 classes the way it works is your eight archetypes give you access to active skills you can spec your uh your skill points into your skill tree to determine what active skills you're gonna get um and then when you choose your secondary archetype that's gonna give you access to augments augments are what layer on top of an active skill and they fundamentally change what the skill does so in the past i've given example of how you know as a fighter you may have a charge skill and that charge skill charges x distance to a target over time deals x damage and some condition modifier and if you chose mage as a secondary you may have a teleport school the teleport school applied to the charge effect instead eliminates the charge time and instantly teleports you to target alternatively each secondary class has four uh augment schools let's say you chose the elemental school well then you could still charge to the target but upon charging towards the target you leave a trail of fire behind you that might deal you know dot damage as you charge through right it fundamentally changes the way that the classes active skills work so that you can blur the line from your traditional archetype role in the trinity towards one or the other kind of systems or you can double down it kind of depends that's that's so awesome man i that and that you know that reminded me like i said i keep saying keep saying linears too but that that kind of reminded me of that like with the whole but it's almost different huh because it wasn't in lineage you didn't turn into like it's almost like with this you have two and then you turn into one right out of these 64. i think right i think with lineage it was just two separate i actually can't remember yeah you did you did a sub class in lineage where when you got i think it was like level 75 or something you got to go do the sub class quest and then what that allowed you to do is it allowed you to switch on the fly like you could go to the subclass manager and switch over to your other class so it didn't really like do any kind of combination there it just gave your character another class they could be they could level up right right yeah so like the way that you kind of i saw like a list of like the 64. i can't remember where i saw it i think it was peon's video again where but it was like if you pick you know this you get this you know what i'm saying yeah yeah it's so i guess another thing too and um i think i saw this vaguely but i know someone in chat was just asking too if so it let's say you pick one you pick your main one right you can't you can never change your main one but your second one technically through work it's probably not gonna be easy right you can change the second if you're correct okay yeah so essentially um when it comes to like the the primary archetype that is a decision you'll want to make and you'll want to make sure it's the right decision because it's it's permanent and again we're going back to you know risk versus reward but also decisions matter right and you are going to create this identity that you can't just change on the fly right this is going to be something that you will know a person and you will know what their base archetype is and they're not just going to change from battle to battle um so that gives some consistency in the engagements and and understanding you know reputation on the server um you will be able to change the secondary uh class and that will as you said require some work uh but you could change a secondary class additionally you can re-allocate skill points also um so you can reset skill point allocation and you know play around in your your primary architect with with the skill points and this is something that i haven't really seen anything on is it is it almost like a tree is it like i don't i don't know if you can talk about the skill points that was one thing i didn't really like it's almost like a talent system right is that like that yeah so like as you as you level up you gain you gain skill points you can apply these skill points to specific skills essentially there are three specific uh categories in the skill tree for your for your classes there is uh passive skills and these will uh you can allocate skill points there that are going to essentially increase your proficiency with certain armors or with specific weapons or you can add to your stat effects passive stat effect bonuses like mana regeneration health regeneration health pool and all those types of things there's the active skill uh branch which is the active skills you would use during combat or you take men can restrain this train hazards and then there is the combat um the weapon excuse me the weapon progression so essentially what happens is skills synergize off of certain status conditions right so let's say for example i'm using a dagger and i allocate points into my my um my weapon tree that says when i use daggers i have a five ten percent chance to proc a bleed effect on a target for x seconds right and um i have an active skill now as well that i have specked into which is like a backstab the backstab deals you know x amount of damage however if the target is under the effect of bleed the backstab would deal an additional 30 damage and prolong the bleed by x amount of time so what happens is we don't have an auto attack feature instead with your weapon when you attack a target with your dagger you know you're actively attacking the target with your dagger if you see that bleed effect proc because you've specced into it in the in the weapon tree then you can use your backstab effect if you want to and maximize the potential damage um you know that's that's the way that those two things kind of synergize additionally active skills can grant status conditions as well and the way we balance the game is around an eight person group right so that takes into account all the base archetypes these skills will synergize with skills from other classes as well so let's say you are let's say you are a fighter with the mage subclass and you have uh the elemental school applied as an augment to you know your your um uh sword slash uh it like it ignites the target on fire because you've done that well now if you have a mage in your party who has their fireball specked and they've they have um allocated skill points for that fireball to deal additional damage on a burning target you'll want to make sure that you time those types of synergies awesome that's ah it's super cool to hear okay so that's yeah that's awesome i i didn't the skill tree was one thing that i didn't see anything on um so i was kind of curious like but how that was kind of laid out um yeah so another thing that i you know and this is just my own thought on it and chat chat said this too uh add-ons do you plan to have any um if not and this is and if not i guess i should let you answer first but like a dps meter right is there any way to tell who's doing the best so you can like flex on your friend and be like you're not doing anything or anything like that or or you guys can stay i'm gonna give my philosophy on go ahead all right i'm ready so i understand the desire to have dps meters however what i first of all in the add-on front we're not along add-ons on the dps meter front i'm i'm opposed to dps meters and the reason why is this there's two types of things that happens with dps meters and mmos first the first thing is it can create a a toxic dynamic be between essentially excluding players from from raids and or content uh because you know oh you don't live up to our dps uh dps standard right that's the first thing i was bottom of my dps meter and classic wow the time all they did was yell at me so true i like that the second thing that it does is back in the day when mmos were great uh you had to win your encounters through trial and error you didn't have a dps meter telling you oh we need to get up to 67.7 damage in order to achieve the whatever right it wasn't some mechanical bullshit experience where you got to look at a graph or a chart and say oh we need to do exactly this instead you actually had to be present you had to watch what was happening you had to help your fellow guild members learn how to play the game and you had to excel as a group right now that is the type of of of experience we want to replicate that everybody is in this uh together type of scenario where we build the teams we are friends with up and we accomplish content together in order to achieve it kind of also provides this mystery effect where like you know you're required to actually participate and watch what's going on and not just rely on that dps meter right yeah now i like that and i especially like the whole you know don't pick on the guy on the bottom of the dps you know what i'm saying i like that i like that too um so a couple other thoughts i have and i know i don't want to keep much of your time um one thing is was this okay was it lineage 2 where you could sell stuff from just sitting down player shop yeah i remember used to go to garand and like it was just right and i'm just walking around and there's people like selling this weapon selling this weapon um as far as like marketplace goes uh is it more auction house based is it play space where you can sell your own stuff yeah it is definitely player based much of the uh the vast vast majority of gear that exists in the game is non uh soul bound is not not a character bound okay okay there's a reason for that right there's deconstruction methods that are vital in in advancing interior quality of crafting stuff um additionally uh the idea behind player shops is there's two types of player shops so you guys have their shops awesome there's one that's very i love the way lineage did it but there's one where you can set up a shop on your character and essentially sit down and sell services or goods right but you must achieve you must purchase a certificate from an economic nodes uh uh primary building in order to be able to do that each time so yeah you could be out in the middle of somewhere but you'd have to have that certificate there that generates revenue for the economic types buildings uh and it also you know makes it uh more consequential and then additionally there's player stalls so nodes have the ability to build a marketplace or markets exist within economic nodes by default um there are stalls there where you can list items specifically at that stall and you don't have to be uh you know online or present at the stall it'll just stay there for a period of time and players can come up and purchase it and then when that stall is empty it'll be available for for rent again the other important component of the auction house system is um there is no global auction house and there's no global warehouse the idea behind the game from a resource and good standpoint is the game is separated into five separate regions and the caravan system is this system that kind of um takes into you can generate a caravan and you can add items excuse me you can add resources and materials to the caravan and then you drive that caravan in the world it can it can hit a shore and turn into a trade ship as well and go out on the sea as a ship we do have naval systems in place but players if they're around they can attack your caravan if they see it or they can sign up to defend it it puts a risk on the transit of good now the benefit of moving those goods around is different nodes will have different crafting stations and you you will need your resources and materials are localized to the warehouse that you've deposited in the region right so if you want to move those things to use them uh to to another node you're going to have to use the caravan system to do it that is so dope so like you could almost so like if you have an ally node you basically to like you may live in a region that is more i don't know it's more wood right you're not by water and then you can have an ally node that's like over near water and they're fishing and then you guys can like tr absolutely you get it stephen you guys get it man this is gonna be oh man i i really i it's hard to not get excited about you know it's really hard to it's hard to not um you know get excited when we're all stuff we're excited too honestly and it's been great for the developers on the team um you know we are we are hiring up right now we we had 24 positions we listed a couple weeks ago i think we filled seven of them so far awesome um and you know it's great to to chat with you know people like you and asmr gold and shroud and summit because it helps get the word out not just for the project but it also helps getting people kind of participating giving their opinion and talking about things and that's really what we like to see is engagement from the community that we love because we're all mmo gamers ourselves sure um and it's it's just it's an important interaction i think that a lot of companies miss out on is there like i i got is there any timeline at all and if you don't know don't tell me you don't know because obviously there's a lot going on in the world right now i'm uh i'm a firm believer in only giving dates when you're 100 confident we've misstepped in the past but from there we learned like only give dates when we're 100 confident we can hit the date we have an alpha one test that's coming at the end of this year okay um so i'll hook you up with a key you can participate in it uh you know the the real important thing is um i always say this you know i love this quote in my life but patience is bitter but its fruit is sweet and um you know when you're building something like this game that is that is answering i think the call of what many gamers has have had like it's okay to be skeptical it is okay to say oh you know this these systems are going to be trash or whatever you know the whole point of testing is to test these systems the whole point of interaction with the community is to get feedback and understand the desires of the player and make sure we're on the right course so participating watching the testing giving feedback that that's what's important um and uh you know we're gonna make this game yeah yeah yeah this is this game is going to be i can't wait to lose my life in it too so i was talking to my wife a little about it last night i was like honey this could very well potentially ruin my career and like my marriage you know if i really don't if i just if i just sit there and chat goes off tim's still playing he's still playing Ashes of Creation it's been four years you know what i'm saying but um yeah dude all right thank you thank you for coming on i think i speak for a lot of a lot of the uh community when we say we're excited and very i think i think everyone's really excited and i think everyone's skeptical because you know there's been like excitement in the past right like oh let let down let down i told asthma gold i told asthma gold like as a as an mmo gamer and many of the other mmo players feel this way we're like beat dogs you know what i mean i told them i said we hear of a new mmo coming out and we approached like you know very shy and timid and then they just beat the shit out of us and we keep going back and you see another one you're like oh maybe this one maybe maybe this one i could eat that treat you know like that's that's what we're thinking but so i understand like the skepticism i'm i'm skeptical of every game but i think the important part of transparency is just showing the progress letting people see like look you know this is this is 4k footage of our pre-alpha experience and this is the product we're making and here's our philosophies it's it's it's really cool to see how uh transparent you guys are being and and listening to the community and stuff like that or just and not even listening but just like being willing to listen i guess is what i would say right because a lot of community a lot of companies you know you can you scream for a while and then nothing's really happening you know what i'm saying so to have you guys so plugged in already is a really encouraging thing i think for a lot of people so buddy appreciate it yeah man thank you again so much i don't keep any more of your time but i really appreciate you coming on and if i if i think of any more questions i'll dm that that twitter account over say hey come back on i got a couple more for you or something like that all right sounds good brother appreciate the time i appreciate your audience thanks guys thanks thanks steve appreciate it man patios later later that was awesome this this game this game is going to ruin my life bro i already know i can already tell what would bro the more that i'm figuring out about this the more i'm realizing that this is like i bro i'm telling you man chat hey listen i know a lot of you it's like fortnite poggers warzone br's listen just shut up and just watch me play this game bro so all right just just just just okay i thank you i don't want any complaints when i'm playing this game in the future i want you to say okay tim smile and just watch me all right oh this game looks awesome bro i'm so excited for this i'm so excited for this all right cool i that was cool that was awesome that was fun i think that went i think that went pretty well for being kind of uh you know off the cuff i didn't even really have a list of questions and i think i think i i don't know i got all the questions out that i was curious about i mean